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  • #16
    The problems in the current system are obvious to me. However, I donít see how 19th century America (whiskey rebellion, legally protected monopolies) was so vastly better...
    They speak in bulletpointese leftist nutjob drivel. It doesn't matter. Nothing is as great a motivator as the chance to truly be free.
    -Mr. Raceboy

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jester View Post
      The problems in the current system are obvious to me. However, I donít see how 19th century America (whiskey rebellion, legally protected monopolies) was so vastly better...
      No, I still don't think you understand.

      You're making my point. The first time the U.S. government used its own military was against its own people for the benefit of its cronies and subvert the free market. Ironic considering why we fought the revolutionary war.

      Government will always try to control the economy to the detriment of freedom and free markets and to the benefit of itself and the politically connected. The problem isn't free markets, its the government. More government = less freedom. It really is just that simple.

      Steve (SMH)
      "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

      Comment


      • #18
        Then the answer whether this capitalism ever existed, or exists, on a national scale is: no.
        State must be smash and stay smash for it to come about. What an ideal.

        dusty (knows raceboy is an anarchist)
        For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
        If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

        "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by dusty View Post
          Then the answer whether this capitalism ever existed, or exists, on a national scale is: no.
          State must be smash and stay smash for it to come about. What an ideal.

          dusty (knows raceboy is an anarchist)
          A state has also never existed that didn't murder its own citizens. So your logic is that because that's also never been the case, it shouldn't be the ideal? Is that really the path of logic you want to go down? Because something has never existed, it shouldn't be considered the ideal? Pretty sure you didn't think that through.

          I make no secrets about being an anarcho-capitalist. The state is always evil. The bigger it is, the more power it has, the more evil it commits. A pure voluntarist society is my ideal, but that doesn't mean I reject everything but pure voluntarism. I support almost anything that just moves us in that direction, but I am a realist in that I know it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for that to happen on this planet.

          The planet is small now so there is really no chance of a large group of like-minded people trying to form their own voluntarist society following the blueprint of the beginning of this country short of some catastrophic event that transforms the planet and wipes out most of the people too. Maybe once space colonization becomes viable, that would be the best chance where a group of people could finally get far enough away to be free of those who wish to rule.

          I don't pretend to be an omniscient central planner, but I can speculate at some huge steps towards my ideal that might be possible in my lifetime. A monetary collapse and subsequent collapse of the federal government could lead to 50 individual independent nation states all competing with each other and with people seeing a collapse of paper Monopoly money, the people might finally return to demanding market-based mediums of exchange. If the government doesn't control the money, and therefor cannot inflate it and hide that tax, it would be forced to directly fund itself. Politicians wouldn't be able to promise endless "free-stuff" as people would know that means higher taxes they can actually see. If the government wanted to fund a war, it would have to also raise taxes or sell bonds where people could vote with their dollars. Without the ability to endlessly inflate, the welfare state also dies and now people can fund the social programs they see fit to fund directly (Oh my god the horror when you get a free surgery, but have to listed to some religious proselytizing with a cross over your bed).

          Steve (would be happy with a simple return to sound money or market based money as that would be a huge restraint on government)

          "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

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          • #20
            http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/2010/1...lion-from-fed/

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post

              A state has also never existed that didn't murder its own citizens. So your logic is that because that's also never been the case, it shouldn't be the ideal? Is that really the path of logic you want to go down? Because something has never existed, it shouldn't be considered the ideal? Pretty sure you didn't think that through.

              I make no secrets about being an anarcho-capitalist. The state is always evil. The bigger it is, the more power it has, the more evil it commits. A pure voluntarist society is my ideal, but that doesn't mean I reject everything but pure voluntarism. I support almost anything that just moves us in that direction, but I am a realist in that I know it would take an extraordinary set of circumstances for that to happen on this planet.

              The planet is small now so there is really no chance of a large group of like-minded people trying to form their own voluntarist society following the blueprint of the beginning of this country short of some catastrophic event that transforms the planet and wipes out most of the people too. Maybe once space colonization becomes viable, that would be the best chance where a group of people could finally get far enough away to be free of those who wish to rule.

              I don't pretend to be an omniscient central planner, but I can speculate at some huge steps towards my ideal that might be possible in my lifetime. A monetary collapse and subsequent collapse of the federal government could lead to 50 individual independent nation states all competing with each other and with people seeing a collapse of paper Monopoly money, the people might finally return to demanding market-based mediums of exchange. If the government doesn't control the money, and therefor cannot inflate it and hide that tax, it would be forced to directly fund itself. Politicians wouldn't be able to promise endless "free-stuff" as people would know that means higher taxes they can actually see. If the government wanted to fund a war, it would have to also raise taxes or sell bonds where people could vote with their dollars. Without the ability to endlessly inflate, the welfare state also dies and now people can fund the social programs they see fit to fund directly (Oh my god the horror when you get a free surgery, but have to listed to some religious proselytizing with a cross over your bed).

              Steve (would be happy with a simple return to sound money or market based money as that would be a huge restraint on government)
              You are terrible at comprehending the logic and communications of others. Jester was asking about if your ideal capitalism is real or has ever been really existing. And I replied based on your own answers to him that no, itís an ideal and not a reality. I didn't call it a good ideal or a bad ideal. Thatís YOUR logic at play, not mine.

              It is a ďpie in the skyĒ ideal though, and you are more idealist than realist, far more idealist than you admit.

              America is the biggest sole superpower empire on the planet; itís not going to revert to a band of independent states anytime soon.

              The moves away from hard currency to fiat money are comparatively recent, so itís possible to conceive that it may not inevitably remain that way (although the immediate path out is hard to determine absent a major breakdown/catastrophe as youíve described).

              But Government as an institution, with all the freedom curtailing implied by its existence, thatís going to be here. Power structures are ingrained in human society for as long back as we can see. It is how humans organize and conduct themselves. An imagined society without government may be ďbetterĒ than actual society, just as any utopia is better than reality. But Government is not going away, never so long as there are humans - thatís reality.
              For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
              If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

              "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

              Comment


              • #22
                Just as a side note to add, power structures government or not are going to exist. They will also be good and bad, just like everything else. The faults of humanity exist, and will continue. Also ad hearing to the concept of any simple solution, or single ideal is plainly not a good idea in my opinion.

                I think what we have here is at least a fair mix of ideals, and they are gonna tug back and forth at each other. A mix of things, are to me at least a representation of the people who live in this country.
                Solo...ya
                01000010 01100001 01100001 00100000 01110111 01100101 01100101 01110000 00100000 01100111 01110010 01100001 01101000 01101110 01100001 00100000 01110111 01100101 01100101 01110000 00100000 01101110 01101001 01101110 01101110 01111001 00100000 01100010 01101111 01101110 01100111

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                • #23
                  What were we talking about again?

                  Pete (forgot)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dusty View Post

                    You are terrible at comprehending the logic and communications of others. Jester was asking about if your ideal capitalism is real or has ever been really existing. And I replied based on your own answers to him that no, itís an ideal and not a reality. I didn't call it a good ideal or a bad ideal. Thatís YOUR logic at play, not mine.

                    It is a ďpie in the skyĒ ideal though, and you are more idealist than realist, far more idealist than you admit.

                    America is the biggest sole superpower empire on the planet; itís not going to revert to a band of independent states anytime soon.

                    The moves away from hard currency to fiat money are comparatively recent, so itís possible to conceive that it may not inevitably remain that way (although the immediate path out is hard to determine absent a major breakdown/catastrophe as youíve described).

                    But Government as an institution, with all the freedom curtailing implied by its existence, thatís going to be here. Power structures are ingrained in human society for as long back as we can see. It is how humans organize and conduct themselves. An imagined society without government may be ďbetterĒ than actual society, just as any utopia is better than reality. But Government is not going away, never so long as there are humans - thatís reality.
                    You are just terrible at communication via the written word. Are you so high you literally can't read the post you wrote that I responded to that had a sarcastic "what an ideal"? I'm all for legal weed, but don't post on it.

                    I notice you completely neglected to respond to my point about the purpose of ideals such as according to your lack of logic it's idealistic to expect governments not to murder their people. Good old leftist dishonesty; simply ignore anything that makes your argument difficult and like magic, it doesn't exist.

                    Did you not read where I agreed with you saying government isn't going away....on this planet? It would take an extraordinary set of circumstances, like something that wipes out a large portion of the world's population or the ability to move off this planet, which really isn't that dissimilar from what the original New World colonists did. People like you criticized those colonists as well, and people like you staid behind loyal to the King.

                    It's easy when you don't have any ideals. That way you can pretend everything is awesome all the time! I'm not saying everything is horrible. I'm obviously not taking up arms against the government and I'm worried about losing weight and not where my next meal is coming from, but when it does all come crashing down, and it will in our lifetime, you're just going to be left scratching your head wondering what happened. That's why people like you continue to live in California and other such shit holes. I mean, San Francisco is literally covered in human shit! That's what your beloved government gets you.

                    Steve (likes pie and sky)
                    Last edited by Mr. Raceboy; 05-18-2019, 05:19 PM.
                    "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Not everything in life is politics.

                      Pete (happens to be part of a generation much smaller than the last)

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post

                        I notice you completely neglected to respond to my point about the purpose of ideals such as according to your lack of logic it's idealistic to expect governments not to murder their people. Good old leftist dishonesty; simply ignore anything that makes your argument difficult and like magic, it doesn't exist.
                        False. I responded by pointing out that you misrepresented my statement, and you were not expressing my logic. I didn't ignore it; I gave it exactly as much response as it deserved in context. I'm not here to play as your strawman.

                        You are not even making a reasoned argument, throwing in loaded words like 'murder'. It's a pie in the sky ideal to expect a world without violence, where people don't kill each other, government or no government. The term "murder" only exists because society and it's power structures (traditionally Church and/or State) has been trying to conceptualize, express and enforce rules for how and when people kill.

                        And it's a pie in the sky ideal to expect a world with no government. So we agree there I guess.
                        Last edited by dusty; 05-19-2019, 01:30 AM.
                        For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
                        If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

                        "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post

                          You are just terrible at communication via the written word. Are you so high you literally can't read the post you wrote that I responded to that had a sarcastic "what an ideal"? I'm all for legal weed, but don't post on it.
                          I've already explained that too. Again. Jester was asking if your capitalistic society had ever existed. And you pointed to 19th century America as the closest example, and then pretty quickly backed off when Jester pointed out it was not particularly close. So I clarified, no, it's a pie in the sky ideal. Not a reality that has existed in the world on any serious scale.

                          So you pretend you are making real world arguments about capitalism or whatever, but it's all just naval-gazing utopian mantra dressed heavily in derisive mocking. Hence my sarcasm.

                          For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
                          If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

                          "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by dusty View Post
                            False. I responded by pointing out that you misrepresented my statement, and you were not expressing my logic. I didn't ignore it; I gave it exactly as much response as it deserved in context. I'm not here to play as your strawman.

                            You are not even making a reasoned argument, throwing in loaded words like 'murder'. It's a pie in the sky ideal to expect a world without violence, where people don't kill each other, government or no government. The term "murder" only exists because society and it's power structures (traditionally Church and/or State) has been trying to conceptualize, express and enforce rules for how and when people kill.

                            And it's a pie in the sky ideal to expect a world with no government. So we agree there I guess.
                            You still didn't address it! Now you're trying to justify even accepting state murder as some kind of moral relativism rather than admitting we need to have some standard which we measure our rulers by. Typical leftist nonsense.

                            Extra double good comrade Dusty.

                            Steve (notes California is full of Dusty clones)

                            "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post
                              Not everything in life is politics.

                              Pete (happens to be part of a generation much smaller than the last)
                              You know what, you're right.

                              Steve (will be fine, but many are going to get exactly what they deserve good and hard so fuck 'em)
                              "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post

                                You still didn't address it! Now you're trying to justify even accepting state murder as some kind of moral relativism rather than admitting we need to have some standard which we measure our rulers by. Typical leftist nonsense.

                                Extra double good comrade Dusty.

                                Steve (notes California is full of Dusty clones)
                                No Iím not. You continue to misrepresent my statements, although I have explained myself.
                                For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
                                If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

                                "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

                                Comment

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