Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Election watch: 2020 Edition

Collapse
This is a sticky topic.
X
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by skooly View Post
    Pardon me, but I'm supposed to assume what your position on abortion is?

    A topic that is frankly hardly ever discussed on this forum. Show me the links to all the topics and posts about it to show that it's so widely discussed I should know better.

    A topic that splits the libertarian party itself. https://www.lp.org/blogs-staff-lp-ch...dual-choice-0/

    A topic that Jessie himself doesn't seem entirely sure about.

    Yet I'm supposed to know exactly where the libertarians stand on it? It's so obvious right?
    I don't think there is any split. The article you posted said: "In my own view, however, there is no conflict: the best way to respect life is to prevent government from interfering with individual rights." That's consistent with what Pete said "My best position on abortion is that it's fundamentally a faith-based issue, and that government should stay out of it." And, it's consistent with what you'd expect any Libertarian to say. "Individual freedoms, little to no government."

    Dan (gets back to work)
    HFM

    As long as there exists people with religion and a belief in God, there will never be a Libertarian state.

    Comment


    • "While our party includes a significant number of people who describe themselves as pro-choice, nearly as many members describe themselves as pro-life."

      I think that can be fairly characterized as a split.

      Pete is pro-choice. If you favor allowing people the choice, you are pro-choice. That doesn't mean he's pro-abortion. I don't think you can straddle the fence on this issue: it's one or the other.
      Last edited by skooly; 04-12-2019, 12:19 PM.
      "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by skooly View Post
        "While our party includes a significant number of people who describe themselves as pro-choice, nearly as many members describe themselves as pro-life."

        I think that can be fairly characterized as a split.

        Pete is pro-choice. If you favor allowing people the choice, you are pro-choice. That doesn't mean he's pro-abortion. I don't think you can straddle the fence on this issue: it's one or the other.
        There is no conflict among Libertarians in that Libertarians want to have individual choice and, that they do not want government to assume the role of choice maker.

        "While our party includes a significant number of people who describe themselves as pro-choice, nearly as many members describe themselves as pro-life. In my own view, however, there is no conflict: the best way to respect life is to prevent government from interfering with individual rights."

        That said, in the context of your earlier post #113, you're correct, there is no way for you to tell whether or not a Libertarian will choose abortion or not.

        HFM

        As long as there exists people with religion and a belief in God, there will never be a Libertarian state.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by hfm View Post

          I don't think there is any split. The article you posted said: "In my own view, however, there is no conflict: the best way to respect life is to prevent government from interfering with individual rights." That's consistent with what Pete said "My best position on abortion is that it's fundamentally a faith-based issue, and that government should stay out of it." And, it's consistent with what you'd expect any Libertarian to say. "Individual freedoms, little to no government."

          Dan (gets back to work)
          100%! Government should stay out of it even though I personally believe it's morally wrong except in cases of rape and incest or medical necessity and who wants the government deciding that. You own your own body and no human being has a right to love off of another. It's pretty simple.

          Steve (is truly pro-choice in all things)

          "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

          Comment


          • If there’s no split, then all those libertarians Jesse and Tquill are talking about must not exist.

            Unless, perhaps they are not really talking about “libertarians”, but about “conservatives”.
            For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
            If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

            "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dusty View Post
              If there’s no split, then all those libertarians Jesse and Tquill are talking about must not exist.

              Unless, perhaps they are not really talking about “libertarians”, but about “conservatives”.
              There's a split in that some libertarians believe abortion is a bad thing and some believe that abortion is a good/neutral thing.

              There's no split in that libertarians don't want government enforcing abortion laws.

              Pete (thinks that would be somewhat, but not totally, contrary to the definition of libertarianism)

              Comment


              • Who believes that abortion is inherently a good thing in general? A necessary thing, yes, but a good thing? What an odd thing to think.
                They speak in bulletpointese leftist nutjob drivel. It doesn't matter. Nothing is as great a motivator as the chance to truly be free.
                -Mr. Raceboy

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jester View Post
                  Who believes that abortion is inherently a good thing in general? A necessary thing, yes, but a good thing? What an odd thing to think.
                  Really? I know lots of those people. They're broadly in three categories:

                  1. Abortion is good because it reduces the number of unwanted people and is effective for population/crime control.
                  2. Abortion is good because it gives women the kind of freedom that men have, so their sex lives and careers don't have to be disrupted by pregnancy.
                  3. Abortion is good because it can eliminate bad traits from the population.

                  You've really never met any of these people?

                  Pete (has talked to many of them)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post

                    There's a split in that some libertarians believe abortion is a bad thing and some believe that abortion is a good/neutral thing.

                    There's no split in that libertarians don't want government enforcing abortion laws.

                    Pete (thinks that would be somewhat, but not totally, contrary to the definition of libertarianism)
                    I don’t know Pete. They didn’t say abortion was “a bad thing”.
                    They said it was “murder”
                    And they said nobody has the right to murder.

                    I think just about all libertarians agree that nobody has the right to murder.
                    And most libertarians agree that regulating and punishing the crime of murder is a proper use of Government. Not the raceboy Anarcho capitalists, but more “mainstream” libertarians.

                    And so it sounds like Jesse and tquill are saying many libertarians believe in laws against murder/abortion. It’s not what Pete* libertarians believe. But it looks like a split, if the people so described still identify as libertarian.
                    For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
                    If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

                    "We've always assumed that you can't bring back the dead. But it's a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post

                      Really? I know lots of those people. They're broadly in three categories:

                      1. Abortion is good because it reduces the number of unwanted people and is effective for population/crime control.
                      2. Abortion is good because it gives women the kind of freedom that men have, so their sex lives and careers don't have to be disrupted by pregnancy.
                      3. Abortion is good because it can eliminate bad traits from the population.

                      You've really never met any of these people?

                      Pete (has talked to many of them)
                      Hmm, I guess I wasn’t thinking it through that lens — more of from a personal standpoint.
                      They speak in bulletpointese leftist nutjob drivel. It doesn't matter. Nothing is as great a motivator as the chance to truly be free.
                      -Mr. Raceboy

                      Comment


                      • We have our first Republican challenger!

                        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47943555

                        Bill Weld: Trump to face 2020 Republican challenge

                        US President Donald Trump is facing a longshot challenge from within his own party ahead of next year's White House election.

                        Former Massachusetts Governor Bill Weld has become the first Republican to challenge Mr Trump in 2020.

                        Mr Weld, 73, has released a campaign video contrasting his style with the current president's.

                        But he faces an uphill battle to take over a Republican party that has been refashioned in Mr Trump's image.

                        Mr Weld was governor of Massachusetts from 1991-97 after serving in the justice department under President Ronald Reagan.

                        He was running mate on the Libertarian ticket during the 2016 presidential election.
                        You can write Weld off already, as his chances of him even being a speed bump to Trump are minute. However, it'll be interesting to see if Weld and some other candidates will fare well enough to merit a Republican debate or two.

                        Pete (isn't holding his breath)

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by dusty View Post

                          I don’t know Pete. They didn’t say abortion was “a bad thing”.
                          They said it was “murder”
                          And they said nobody has the right to murder.

                          I think just about all libertarians agree that nobody has the right to murder.
                          And most libertarians agree that regulating and punishing the crime of murder is a proper use of Government. Not the raceboy Anarcho capitalists, but more “mainstream” libertarians.

                          And so it sounds like Jesse and tquill are saying many libertarians believe in laws against murder/abortion. It’s not what Pete* libertarians believe. But it looks like a split, if the people so described still identify as libertarian.
                          If I believed that abortion was murder, then I'd support government enforcing and punishing people for committing that murder. At that point though, we're not talking about abortion laws anymore. I'm not sure what I believe honestly, but it's definitely immoral. I don't think the government has any business getting involved in it though.

                          Jesse (most closely identifies as a minarchist)
                          DEEZ NUTS FOR PRESIDENT!!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Jesse View Post
                            If I believed that abortion was murder, then I'd support government enforcing and punishing people for committing that murder. At that point though, we're not talking about abortion laws anymore. I'm not sure what I believe honestly, but it's definitely immoral. I don't think the government has any business getting involved in it though.

                            Jesse (most closely identifies as a minarchist)
                            How nice of you to put me on blast for not knowing your position on abortion when you don't even know it yourself.

                            I don't think there's anything wrong with being uncertain about it, but next time, maybe try not getting swept up in Steve's mindless troll jobs.
                            "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post
                              Ask me if I'm pro-choice or pro-life? The answer is neither.
                              Pete, why do you and the Libertarian Party itself resist the label of pro-choice... when you clearly fit the definition of it? Is it all the baggage that comes with the term?

                              skooly (assures you nobody will confuse you for a liberal)
                              "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by skooly View Post

                                Pete, why do you and the Libertarian Party itself resist the label of pro-choice... when you clearly fit the definition of it? Is it all the baggage that comes with the term?

                                skooly (assures you nobody will confuse you for a liberal)
                                Because the label "pro-choice" communicates some things I am actively against, including:

                                1. Funding for Planned Parenthood and other pro-abortion activities
                                2. Federal actions preventing states from enacting their own policies regarding abortions
                                3. Forcing religious groups to pay for contraception and abortions
                                4. A belief that abortion is a proper vehicle for making women equal with men

                                If I say I'm pro-choice, people assume that's my position. It is not.

                                Both "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are simply political framing. "Life" is good. "Choice" is good. Both terms are seeking to glorify the virtues of a package of policies that their adherents consider good and proper, these policies largely involving government intervention and coercion. I want no part of either of them.

                                Pete (sums up, and left a lot of the more controversial elements off the list)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X