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The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined

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  • The US has had 57 times as many school shootings as the other major industrialized nations combined


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    https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/21/us/sc...SGI7Ea9mjV6-co
    "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

  • #2
    Which one are you moving to?
    "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

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    • #3
      The definition:
      The parameters we followed in this count are -
      • Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)
      • Shooting must occur on school grounds
      • We included gang violence, fights and domestic violence (but our count is NOT limited to those categories)
      • We included grades Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational schools
      • We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met
      Each of these is well chosen to augment the USA count.

      1. Shooting must involve at least one person being shot (not including the shooter)

      This eliminates suicides, which is good for the purposes of tracking "school shootings" but would also likely bring down the 288-5 ratio. On the whole I'm OK with this. I take some exception with the definition of "shot," because we see below that any accidental discharge that strikes anyone counts on this scorecard.

      2. Shooting must occur on school grounds

      Conveniently for the author, "schools grounds" has a far more expansive definition in the USA than in the other six countries. In most of Europe, "school grounds" means a school building. In the USA it means the school building, all property owned by the school building, and (I swear I'm not making this up) "School grounds also includes other facilities as defined in N.J.A.C. 6A:26-1.2, playgrounds, and recreational places owned by municipalities, private entities or other individuals during those times when the school district has exclusive use of a portion of the land." So if a person gets shot in a park that is not part of the school, but that at some point in time is exclusively used by the school, that counts as a shooting "on school grounds."

      3. We included gang violence, fights, and domestic violence

      Naturally. That probably accounted for probably 250 of the 288 they counted. Couldn't pass those up!

      4. We included Kindergarten through college/university level as well as vocational school

      This is the most egregious one. Naturally if you're trying to beef up USA numbers, you include universities. The USA has over 5300 accredited universities alone, and while I can't find a decent count for vocational schools, the data says that 12% of postgraduate education is through vocational schools, so a safe estimate is that for every 7 colleges there is a vocational school, so you're looking at a ballpark figure of about 6050 schools, not counting those that may not be accredited. France has roughly 100 universities. Germany chimes in with about 400. Canada has 96. The UK sports a bit over 100. Italy has 90. And of course, Japan has no violence whatsoever, so it costs this author nothing to include their 600+ universities.

      American universities are also the size of small cities, something they do not share with their European or Japanese counterparts. Just for a rough comparison, Oxford University sits on about 900 acres, and is the largest university in the UK. Harvard is over 6000 acres. University of Illinois (where a bunch of us went to school) is about 2000. There are numerous colleges in the USA that span well over 10000 acres, and a few over 15000. "School grounds" on a US college campus can be the size of a European city.

      I should also note that unlike most of the world, we have "schools" that are actually military installations and police training grounds, where live fire of ammunition is commonplace. I'm not sure what kinds of numbers West Point, the US naval academy, or our police academies contribute to this total, but it's probably significant. These are not dangerous places, but accidents in life fire exercises are bound to happen, and as we see below, they count. To the best of my knowledge, none of the other countries listed train their soldiers or policemen in "schools."

      5. We included accidental discharge of a firearm as long as the first two parameters are met

      Naturally...after all, who's the most likely to have an accidental discharge? The campus cop, actual cop, or armed security guard. Certainly in countries like the UK, France, and Japan where even the police carry no weapons, there can be no accidental discharge. I'm curious also how they would score it if a gun accidentally fired and hit the owner. If they count the owner as the "shooter" then that shouldn't be included, but I suspect it still is, because they're likely consider victims to be non-shooters.

      The worst of the cherry picking data is here, though:

      The time period:
      From January 1, 2009 to May 21, 2018.
      Europe had a rash of school shootings from 2002 to 2008. The timeframe is chosen specifically to exclude those. That's no accident.

      Pete (knows the US has a bigger problem than these places, but manipulating the data like this to come up with a 288-5 figure isn't helping anyone but propagandists)
      Last edited by Plezercruz; 06-13-2019, 01:22 AM.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post
        I take some exception with the definition of "shot," because we see below that any accidental discharge that strikes anyone counts on this scorecard.
        Why should an accidental discharge not count towards the total?

        "School grounds also includes other facilities as defined in N.J.A.C. 6A:26-1.2, playgrounds, and recreational places owned by municipalities, private entities or other individuals during those times when the school district has exclusive use of a portion of the land." So if a person gets shot in a park that is not part of the school, but that at some point in time is exclusively used by the school, that counts as a shooting "on school grounds."
        Even if we assume the N.J.A.C. applies (what is this, btw?), you have mischaracterized the definition. It says "during those times when the school district has exclusive use......" not "at some point in time." If a student shoots another student on a field trip to a park, it counts towards the total. As it should. If a student is shot at the same park over the weekend, it does not count towards the total. As it shouldn't.

        Naturally. That probably accounted for probably 250 of the 288 they counted. Couldn't pass those up!
        Why should gang violence not count towards the total?

        This is the most egregious one. Naturally if you're trying to beef up USA numbers, you include universities. The USA has over 5300 accredited universities alone, and while I can't find a decent count for vocational schools, the data says that 12% of postgraduate education is through vocational schools, so a safe estimate is that for every 7 colleges there is a vocational school, so you're looking at a ballpark figure of about 6050 schools, not counting those that may not be accredited. France has roughly 100 universities. Germany chimes in with about 400. Canada has 96. The UK sports a bit over 100. Italy has 90. And of course, Japan has no violence whatsoever, so it costs this author nothing to include their 600+ universities.

        American universities are also the size of small cities, something they do not share with their European or Japanese counterparts. Just for a rough comparison, Oxford University sits on about 900 acres, and is the largest university in the UK. Harvard is over 6000 acres. University of Illinois (where a bunch of us went to school) is about 2000. There are numerous colleges in the USA that span well over 10000 acres, and a few over 15000. "School grounds" on a US college campus can be the size of a European city.

        I should also note that unlike most of the world, we have "schools" that are actually military installations and police training grounds, where live fire of ammunition is commonplace. I'm not sure what kinds of numbers West Point, the US naval academy, or our police academies contribute to this total, but it's probably significant. These are not dangerous places, but accidents in life fire exercises are bound to happen, and as we see below, they count. To the best of my knowledge, none of the other countries listed train their soldiers or policemen in "schools."
        I agree, we have a lot more schools and our schools are a lot bigger. We also have way more guns overall by several orders of magnitude.

        Your argument about military and police training grounds shootings is speculative. I'd speculate that their tighter controls may lead to better safety.

        Europe had a rash of school shootings from 2002 to 2008. The timeframe is chosen specifically to exclude those. That's no accident.
        They are looking at the past 10 years, which is entirely reasonable.

        When Germany experienced school shootings between 2002-2009, they actually did something about it. Psychological tests, age restrictions, and a national registry of weapons all helped greatly reduce the gun violence.

        skooly (thinks you apply many arbitrary distinctions to minimize the count)
        Last edited by skooly; 06-13-2019, 09:05 AM.
        "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post
          Which one are you moving to?
          Steve fiddled while the house burned.
          "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

          Comment


          • #6
            Yes, why would some crimes/incidences with guns at schools count and not others?

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            • #7
              One more thing.

              288 incidents across approximately 99,000 elementary and secondary schools and over 6000 universities and trade schools covering something on the order of 200 million acres over a span of 9 years is still exceptionally rare. Like really really REALLY freaking rare. And that's not even figuring in that the bulk of them are likely to be accidents and gang/domestic crime.

              Pete (can do math)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Plezercruz View Post
                One more thing.

                288 incidents across approximately 99,000 elementary and secondary schools and over 6000 universities and trade schools covering something on the order of 200 million acres over a span of 9 years is still exceptionally rare. Like really really REALLY freaking rare. And that's not even figuring in that the bulk of them are likely to be accidents and gang/domestic crime.

                Pete (can do math)
                No way Pete. It's an EPIDEMIC! Haven't you been paying attention to the media?
                "Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses." H.L. Mencken

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                • #9
                  The rates are relative Pete. The question is why the USA states exponentially higher than the other counties listed.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by skooly View Post
                    Even if we assume the N.J.A.C. applies (what is this, btw?), you have mischaracterized the definition. It says "during those times when the school district has exclusive use......" not "at some point in time." If a student shoots another student on a field trip to a park, it counts towards the total. As it should. If a student is shot at the same park over the weekend, it does not count towards the total. As it shouldn't.
                    I'll offer a local example that I know well.

                    In the City of Chicago, there are multiple city-owned parks and stadiums. They are shared by various nearby schools to hold sporting events. Most of the time they are vacant, but whenever there is a game, they are packed with students and parents. As a matter of technicality, according to the NJAC, these are only "school grounds" when the school district has exclusive use over them. However, whenever someone get shot at one of these stadiums, which unfortunately happens with some regularity in those parts of Chicago, whether or not that stadium is actually being used by the school at the time, the headlines always read "Shooting at high school football stadium" and so on, even though the stadium is miles from any one school.

                    By the NJAC definition, the stadium is school grounds... sometimes. But not usually. And not when someone was shot. I'm betting they were counted anyway, but I have no way to know for sure. Given the sensationalist position of the author, I'm reasonably sure he used the most expansive definition possible.

                    Pete (notes that these parks appear to be particularly favored by Chicago's gangs when not in use by schools)


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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Jeff92se View Post
                      The rates are relative Pete. The question is why the USA states exponentially higher than the other counties listed.
                      The answer is clearly "because we have guns."

                      I could probably write an article about how vodka kills 100000x more Orthodox Christians than all of Central America combined. If I did the research, it would pan out. That's just because Russians have vodka and Central Americans don't, and the Russians are predominantly Orthodox Christians and the prevailing religion in Central America is Catholicism. That's not so say that vodka isn't a problem in Russia...but these kinds of false comparisons are stupid, and do no good except to fuel propaganda hounds.

                      Pete (gets how all this works, and why any made-up ratio is probably a stupid trick)
                      Last edited by Plezercruz; 06-13-2019, 10:40 AM.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mr. Raceboy View Post

                        No way Pete. It's an EPIDEMIC! Haven't you been paying attention to the media?
                        288 vs 5 is pretty hard to sweep under the rug.
                        "I guess I just hate the fact there is public property at all." - Mr. Raceboy.

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                        • #13
                          The US also has more population than ask of those countries put together.
                          "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." –Mark Twain

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                          • #14
                            https://www.worldometers.info/world-...on-by-country/

                            Almost more than all the countries but not quite.

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                            • #15
                              Anyone want to guess why they left Russia out?

                              Pete (knows why)

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