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Thread: 5G Is Coming. Are you ready?

  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dusty View Post
    Did he??
    Pete issued a private response that he thinks Aristotle did so unequivocally state. I think Pete has it wrong.

    Aristotle defined political systems both by their structure and by whether they operate in the interest of the public or whether they do not. So Monarchy and Tyranny are two systems, structurally similar (rule by the one), but they support different interests (Monarchy for the public, Tyranny for the tyrant). Similarly, he defines Aristocracy and Oligarchy as a second pair type of political structures; and then Polity and Democracy as a third.

    Plato's Republic posits that the best government is run by a class of "philosopher kings", people who would be identified for their abilities as children, and then raised specially to take on their role in the ruling class. In other words, he is describing a kind of Aristocracy as being the best for promoting happiness* among the people in the Republic.

    Pete is wrong because Aristotle also wrote that Aristocracy (and Monarchy) are the governing systems that most promote happiness* among the people. Aristotle adds a caveat however, stating that Aristocracy and Monarchy are both dangerous systems because of a ready tendency to devolve into Tyranny or Oligarchy, respectively. Therefore, says Aristotle, practically Polity is the political system worth advancing, even though it basically can never be so successful at causing happiness* in the people as would good Monarchy or Aristocracy.

    Happiness* - In both Plato and Aristotle's work, the Greek word generally translated as "happiness" had a unique meaning which may differ from our understanding of "happiness". Pete alluded to the problem of trying to economically analyze such a nebulous and shifting term as "Happiness*". To Plato and Aristotle, when they talk about "happiness" they mean "to have a flourishing, successful life" and what this itself means is also subject to many many words. One of the big questions of philosophy to them was to come to an understanding of what this "Happiness*" even was, or should be.
    For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
    If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

    "We’ve always assumed that you can’t bring back the dead. But it’s a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

  2. #52
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    I just want to know what the hell all this has to do with 5G.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by cart213 View Post
    I just want to know what the hell all this has to do with 5G.
    With 5G, Dusty and Pete can talk over my head even faster.
    They speak in bulletpointese leftist nutjob drivel. It doesn't matter. Nothing is as great a motivator as the chance to truly be free.
    -Mr. Raceboy

  4. #54
    You're making the very common error of mistaking Aristotle's Aristocracy with the European form of hereditary aristocracy. Aristotle's Aristorcracy is rule by the most capable members of the citizenry, not by a "ruling class." He'd consider the latter to be Oligarchy. As to who can be a citizen, it was Aristotle's belief that most men could be citizens, and therefore eligible to be rulers. And his criticism of Plato's heavily oppressive and nearly totally dictatorial state is undeniable.

    All quotes in this post shameless lifted from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/
    Although his own political views were influenced by his teacher Plato, Aristotle is highly critical of the ideal constitution set forth in Plato's Republic on the grounds that it overvalues political unity, it embraces a system of communism that is impractical and inimical to human nature, and it neglects the happiness of the individual citizens (Politics II.1–5). In contrast, in Aristotle's “best constitution,” each and every citizen will possess moral virtue and the equipment to carry it out in practice, and thereby attain a life of excellence and complete happiness (see VII.13.1332a32–8). All of the citizens will hold political office and possess private property because “one should call the city-state happy not by looking at a part of it but at all the citizens.” (VII.9.1329a22–3). Moreover, there will be a common system of education for all the citizens, because they share the same end (Pol. VIII.1).
    Aristotle admits that his "best constitution" of Aristocracy is often unworkable, and that Polity might be the best system that a city-state can attain.

    If (as is the case with most existing city-states) the population lacks the capacities and resources for complete happiness, however, the lawgiver must be content with fashioning a suitable constitution (Politics IV.11). The second-best system typically takes the form of a polity (in which citizens possess an inferior, more common grade of virtue) or mixed constitution (combining features of democracy, oligarchy, and, where possible, aristocracy, so that no group of citizens is in a position to abuse its rights). Aristotle argues that for city-states that fall short of the ideal, the best constitution is one controlled by a numerous middle class which stands between the rich and the poor. For those who possess the goods of fortune in moderation find it “easiest to obey the rule of reason” (Politics IV.11.1295b4–6). They are accordingly less apt than the rich or poor to act unjustly toward their fellow citizens. A constitution based on the middle class is the mean between the extremes of oligarchy (rule by the rich) and democracy (rule by the poor). “That the middle [constitution] is best is evident, for it is the freest from faction: where the middle class is numerous, there least occur factions and divisions among citizens” (IV.11.1296a7–9). The middle constitution is therefore both more stable and more just than oligarchy and democracy.
    Note also that I did not state that Aristotle thought all government would stifle human happiness...he reserved that criticism specifically for Plato's Republic, which was so transcendently absolute and totalitarian that it exceeded the evils of all three of his "deviant" governmental forms.

    Aristotle's hylomorphic analysis has important practical implications for him: just as a craftsman should not try to impose a form on materials for which it is unsuited (e.g. to build a house out of sand), the legislator should not lay down or change laws which are contrary to the nature of the citizens. Aristotle accordingly rejects utopian schemes such as the proposal in Plato's Republic that children and property should belong to all the citizens in common. For this runs afoul of the fact that "people give most attention to their own property, less to what is communal, or only as much as falls to them to give attention" (Pol. II.3.1261b33–5). Aristotle is also wary of casual political innovation, because it can have the deleterious side-effect of undermining the citizens' habit of obeying the law (II.8.1269a13–24)
    Pete (stands by his statement above)

  5. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by cart213 View Post
    I just want to know what the hell all this has to do with 5G.
    ha ha. that's why Pete said he didn't reply in thread, at first.

    dusty (derails)
    For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
    If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

    "We’ve always assumed that you can’t bring back the dead. But it’s a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by dusty View Post
    ha ha. that's why Pete said he didn't reply in thread, at first.

    dusty (derails)
    I gave it 24 hours (23 hours...just checked) and then when it looked like the thread was going to fade into oblivion anyway, I figured "what the heck?"

    Pete (isn't exactly having his arm twisted to talk about this stuff)
    Last edited by Plezercruz; 08-22-2018 at 12:03 AM.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Plezercruz View Post
    You're making the very common error of mistaking Aristotle's Aristocracy with the European form of hereditary aristocracy. Aristotle's Aristorcracy is rule by the most capable members of the citizenry, not by a "ruling class." He'd consider the latter to be Oligarchy. As to who can be a citizen, it was Aristotle's belief that most men could be citizens, and therefore eligible to be rulers. And his criticism of Plato's heavily oppressive and nearly totally dictatorial state is undeniable.

    All quotes in this post shameless lifted from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy: https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-politics/


    Aristotle admits that his "best constitution" of Aristocracy is often unworkable, and that Polity might be the best system that a city-state can attain.



    Note also that I did not state that Aristotle thought all government would stifle human happiness...he reserved that criticism specifically for Plato's Republic, which was so transcendently absolute and totalitarian that it exceeded the evils of all three of his "deviant" governmental forms.



    Pete (stands by his statement above)
    No I didn’t mistake aristotle’s Aristocracy for European Aristocracy. However I did see in your initial comment the suggestion that Aristotle’s critique of Plato was that Plato assumed men needed rulers, as if Aristotle had concluded that the ideal state would have no rulers. He did not, as you have now clarified and we’ve now both expounded upon.

    If Aristitle’s aristocracy is rule by the most capable, then it is generally equivalent to the “aristocracy” defined in Plato’s republic. At least insofar as my point was to counter the suggestion I had read into your comment. Plato envisions that the philosophically-minded will be identified as small children, and then separated from society to be raised and trained to enter the “class*” of “philosopher Kings” . There is no heredity to entering he class, but it is an elite subclass of society. They are selected for being the best, and in that sense are like Aristotelian Aristocracy which is rule by the Best. But yes the methods and systems of the State envisioned in the Republic are certainly oppressive.

    I am much more familiar with Plato’s Repiblic than Aristotle’s Politics, so many of the details of his concepts and critiques you have highlighted above has been new to me. My studies of Aristotle as I recall was mostly Nicomachan ethics, and summaries and commentaries, etc.

    dusty (continues)
    For every ailment under the sun - There is a remedy, or there is none;
    If there be one, try to find it; If there be none, never mind it. -- Mother Goose

    "We’ve always assumed that you can’t bring back the dead. But it’s a matter of when you pickle the cells." -- Peter Rhee

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